I do not doubt that it was a challenge for Solkar. Gratitude is more commonly expressed on Vulcan by children acknowledging the efforts of their elders, and furthermore would never be a natural response to a greeting.
I believe now that it is appropriately emblematic of the relationship Vulcans and humans have cultivated.
If an archetypal human existed then perhaps it would be easier for the majority of Vulcans to understand them.
[ ssss ]
Your imagination does you credit. They are indeed forthcoming, and readier with emotion. This is something quickly corrected with discipline and tutelage.
(kirk doesn't add that the vulcans he's met, while similar to one another in placidity and philosophy, have been entirely unique. it's impossible for him to compare any two.
spock is nothing like his father, just as sarek is nothing like his son. t'pau, t'pring, and stonn, too, were entirely different with their own private motivations.)
How long, typically, does it take a child to adapt? It must differ per individual.
[ The question isn't an unexpected one, nor is it particularly prying. All the same, there's something about it which inspires a certain boldness in Spock himself, returning it with a much more pointed inquiry that's a bit more forthcoming than they usually are. ]
Are you asking because you are interested in the development of Vulcans or in my own history?
For both I must say that my personal experience was somewhat atypical and inspired similar atypical behaviors in my peers.
(is it too forward? it's gotten difficult for him to tell. the lives of others rush by like comets while they're ensnared in each other's deep gravity well.
neither of them has been forthright about their pasts, never feeling a pressing need to pry. gradually discovering what he can of him has been rewarding, every new item as valuable to him as the last. spock may deflect him as he pleases without judgement, a thought that makes it alright for him to proceed.)
Usually to better understand a concept, I loosely compare what I'm being told to my own experiences. From a very young age, I was expected to behave myself and act according to my parent's wishes, but it's common for adults to accept that children are still immature and will likely act immature until they're teenagers—later than that, in some cases.
That's not how it is on Vulcan.
If every child on Vulcan is forthcoming and readier with emotion, when does this become unacceptable? Is it always so? Or is there a period when it is understood to be that way until they get older.
[ His captain describes relational empathy in his attempts to understand Vulcan culture and the human part of him recognizes its own amusement at how ill-fitting that is and yet how entirely like Kirk. The Vulcan side, on the other hand, wars with itself. His people have an intense respect for their own privacy, an interest in it that borders on the illogical, and he has a responsibility to maintain that cultural mystique.
This is, however, Captain Kirk. ]
I had suspected discipline to be an important feature of your upbringing. In this way, we are alike.
Where we differ is in the relationship between understanding and acceptance. It is always understood that Vulcan children will display emotion, though it is very rarely spoken of publicly. It is never, however, accepted. An obscene behavior will always be treated as obscene.
(mccoy considers the vulcan way defective and would likely follow spock's explanation with an unrelated tale about his daughter. when joanna lee was a self-confident spitfire, opinionated like her father. how he encouraged it in letters to her, knowing she'd grow up strong, independent, and unrepentantly human. they'd chuckle at the tangential topic, he'd watch spock turn away, and they'd find it difficult to reconvene.
kirk knows that vulcan culture is alien and entirely divorced from earth. he, therefore, has no anecdotes to tell. he lets the comparisons happen and accepts—celebrates—that they're different.)
That is the Vulcan way, of course. Logicality, no matter the circumstance. As I understand it, the adult reaction to any behaviour considered crude would incentivize the children to avoid repeating that behaviour.
You choose your words with special care, Captain, when in reality we are not averse to using the same terminology a human would: our children are punished when they behave poorly. It was the same for me.
My parents agreed that I would be raised in the Vulcan way. When I was conscious of their arrangement, I too found it suitable. I find it unlikely that there existed a Vulcan child in my age group who was expected to follow a rule I had not already had imposed upon me.
[ Sarek is a strict man with extremely high expectations for his children, but of course that's secondary to the real point: his half-human nature required he be twice as good, twice as capable, twice as Vulcan. ]
I presume that the structure of Starfleet inspired similar order in your own home.
(he hadn't planned to say it, but now that spock's brought it up, it feels more approachable. punishment is difficult to discuss and explain for humans when the methods differ for each family.
kirk thinks of spock's unconventional parents. amanda's intelligence and pointed nature are only matched by her genial charm; meeting her was a delight. spending time with sarek, however, was a tense affair for all who entered his circle of influence. he is intolerant, severe even by vulcan standards, and stubborn—fortunately, not in the way that spock is. they may share the trait, but it's obvious to him that his first officer takes after his mother.)
That your mother agreed to raise you the Vulcan way had been a mystery to me before I met her. After transporting the delegates to the Babel conference, however, I understand more than I did.
(it couldn't have been an easy choice, but raising spock the human way might've been just as difficult. kirk shakes his head, refusing to analyze it further. spock is the way that he is; for that, he couldn't be more thankful.)
There are no punishments, however, more brutal than the ones we inflict on ourselves. I speak of our tendencies specifically.
(he smiles at the message sent, then deliberates his childhood.)
It's true that my parents were very firm with my brother and me. As you know, I was raised on a farm. I was very lucky to be, but the lifestyle is tough. You develop a thick skin, balancing the life you lead with the life you'd like to lead.
I was born on Vulcan, Jim, not in the confines of space. A middle-ground never existed. My mother was aware of her commitments to Sarek and to what a life with him would mean, a life on our planet. To raise me as a human on Vulcan would have presented unique challenges my parents need not have faced.
[ Is wondering how life might have been different for him had they attempted it just one example of the "tendencies" to which his captain refers? It is not impossible. Such a topic may be one of academic interest but it is doubtless still a self-destructive exercise. He is what he is.
Jim Kirk is Jim Kirk.
They are unique, distinct, in spite of all the things that bring them together. There is no need to long for anything to have changed when change would potentially force them to separate. ]
You speak of dissatisfaction with your circumstances that early on in your life. Is that because even then you were aware that your true calling was with Starfleet?
(when he met amanda, she didn't seem to be strictly practicing vulcan way or pretending to be one. to him, she was an intelligent, humorous woman with a secret; she may take the lifestyle seriously, but she expected more from both sarek and spock. spock, too, shows these qualities. an unswerving dedication to philosophies important to him and the expectation that others can improve their own circumstances. he's really something, isn't he?
kirk exhales through his nose, smile fading.)
I had some idea of what I wanted to do, but that wasn't the reason I was dissatisfied. My mother's focus was on her career and she often expressed to my father that she wanted more than a life on a farm. When she left, I felt the same way.
I can dress it up with Starfleet all I like, but, in reality, a boy missed his mother.
[ To speak openly of missing a parent, of using that as an emotional motivation, would be considered repulsive on Vulcan. From Jim, both honesty and devotion only sway him into a deeper sense of respect for his best friend. ]
I believe as is so often the case you fail to do justice to your own restlessness and ambition. I am not a man given to dressing up a topic and as such believe I can speak with objectivity on the subject.
[ Objectivity around him? Around Kirk? Thinking about that is as unpleasant as forming his reply for "unique challenges". ]
Vulcans embrace diversity and Vulcans embrace logic. What is meant to be different should be different, but many did not see the logic in my being meant to be at all. We are strict with ourselves. If emotions are a danger, then a Vulcan who acts human might be seen as an unnecessary risk. [ And an embarrassment. ]
(there's only one emotion he can muster up that seems to suit spock's "unbiased" impression of him: gratitude.)
No one else is as efficient at reminding me of that, Spock. What would I do without you?
(if they were face-to-face, the levity in his tone might've suggested that the rhetorical question was a harmless joke. over text, however, expression and body language are hidden away. his message conveys what he'd like it to convey.)
Never mind the risks.
You as a person represent the very best qualities of both a Vulcan of Vulcan and a human of Earth. It seems they've failed to realize that you are the IDIC variable they're meant to be celebrating.
[ His captain is a disarming man and Spock has witnessed this firsthand in his interactions with previous acquaintances, dearest companions, and strangers unaccustomed to his ways. He has also experienced the effects himself.
As he is now, reading two simple sentences he has never seen spelled out before and yet feel intimately familiar.
It takes him a full conscious second of thought to realize the reason is that he's been waiting for them for years, occasionally daring to apply the philosophy of IDIC to his own situation but never bold enough to demand entry into a society where his place has been earned. ]
Thank you, Jim.
[ A response that on the surface is simple and downplayed, but Kirk will recognize it as anything but. It's a refusal to entertain the defenses he conjures for his people's own bigotry towards him, it's an acceptance of a human norm, and it's an intentional usage of the man's first name because barriers are unwelcome after that sentiment. ]
(a "simple" word of thanks this isn't. for spock, these three words and the emotions behind them are the precarious overhang and the sheer cliff beneath it respectively. it's a visual, textual representation of the astounding amount of trust spock—dear friend and brother—places in him.
if it weren't followed up by a smart remark, tempting a pinched smile and resulting breath of amusement out of him, he might've sought him out in an attempt to spend the rest of the day in his company. there's still a chance of that, but he's sated for now and undeniably pleased with their current conversation.)
[ He knows, without a doubt, that it is, even before Jim has responded.
Just as it had been his to correct Kirk's misconceptions about himself and to attempt to brush away any doubts. Even at such a distance, even without touch or extended conversation, he cannot doubt that they've achieved some form of Synchrony even through as little as this. ]
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Illogical and endless, definitely. But very entertaining.
If I recall correctly, Cochrane's response to "Live long and prosper" was "Thanks." What do you make of that?
no subject
I believe now that it is appropriately emblematic of the relationship Vulcans and humans have cultivated.
no subject
(a physical representation of his facts and opinions. it'd be enlightening, highly accurate, and highly entertaining.)
You know, I've never met a Vulcan child. I imagine they're just as honest as the adults, though lacking the same filters.
no subject
[ ssss ]
Your imagination does you credit. They are indeed forthcoming, and readier with emotion. This is something quickly corrected with discipline and tutelage.
no subject
(kirk doesn't add that the vulcans he's met, while similar to one another in placidity and philosophy, have been entirely unique. it's impossible for him to compare any two.
spock is nothing like his father, just as sarek is nothing like his son. t'pau, t'pring, and stonn, too, were entirely different with their own private motivations.)
How long, typically, does it take a child to adapt? It must differ per individual.
no subject
Are you asking because you are interested in the development of Vulcans or in my own history?
For both I must say that my personal experience was somewhat atypical and inspired similar atypical behaviors in my peers.
no subject
Both. My questions were originally intended to be general ones, Spock, but I won't deny that I'm interested in your personal history as well.
Would you like me to rephrase?
don't use that icon on me
I believe it wise that you do so.
[ What is wiser is shutting this conversation down, but he is the one that opened the door. ]
it's too late
neither of them has been forthright about their pasts, never feeling a pressing need to pry. gradually discovering what he can of him has been rewarding, every new item as valuable to him as the last. spock may deflect him as he pleases without judgement, a thought that makes it alright for him to proceed.)
Usually to better understand a concept, I loosely compare what I'm being told to my own experiences. From a very young age, I was expected to behave myself and act according to my parent's wishes, but it's common for adults to accept that children are still immature and will likely act immature until they're teenagers—later than that, in some cases.
That's not how it is on Vulcan.
If every child on Vulcan is forthcoming and readier with emotion, when does this become unacceptable? Is it always so? Or is there a period when it is understood to be that way until they get older.
no subject
This is, however, Captain Kirk. ]
I had suspected discipline to be an important feature of your upbringing. In this way, we are alike.
Where we differ is in the relationship between understanding and acceptance. It is always understood that Vulcan children will display emotion, though it is very rarely spoken of publicly. It is never, however, accepted. An obscene behavior will always be treated as obscene.
no subject
kirk knows that vulcan culture is alien and entirely divorced from earth. he, therefore, has no anecdotes to tell. he lets the comparisons happen and accepts—celebrates—that they're different.)
That is the Vulcan way, of course. Logicality, no matter the circumstance. As I understand it, the adult reaction to any behaviour considered crude would incentivize the children to avoid repeating that behaviour.
What was it like for you?
no subject
My parents agreed that I would be raised in the Vulcan way. When I was conscious of their arrangement, I too found it suitable. I find it unlikely that there existed a Vulcan child in my age group who was expected to follow a rule I had not already had imposed upon me.
[ Sarek is a strict man with extremely high expectations for his children, but of course that's secondary to the real point: his half-human nature required he be twice as good, twice as capable, twice as Vulcan. ]
I presume that the structure of Starfleet inspired similar order in your own home.
no subject
kirk thinks of spock's unconventional parents. amanda's intelligence and pointed nature are only matched by her genial charm; meeting her was a delight. spending time with sarek, however, was a tense affair for all who entered his circle of influence. he is intolerant, severe even by vulcan standards, and stubborn—fortunately, not in the way that spock is. they may share the trait, but it's obvious to him that his first officer takes after his mother.)
That your mother agreed to raise you the Vulcan way had been a mystery to me before I met her. After transporting the delegates to the Babel conference, however, I understand more than I did.
(it couldn't have been an easy choice, but raising spock the human way might've been just as difficult. kirk shakes his head, refusing to analyze it further. spock is the way that he is; for that, he couldn't be more thankful.)
There are no punishments, however, more brutal than the ones we inflict on ourselves. I speak of our tendencies specifically.
(he smiles at the message sent, then deliberates his childhood.)
It's true that my parents were very firm with my brother and me. As you know, I was raised on a farm. I was very lucky to be, but the lifestyle is tough. You develop a thick skin, balancing the life you lead with the life you'd like to lead.
no subject
[ Is wondering how life might have been different for him had they attempted it just one example of the "tendencies" to which his captain refers? It is not impossible. Such a topic may be one of academic interest but it is doubtless still a self-destructive exercise. He is what he is.
Jim Kirk is Jim Kirk.
They are unique, distinct, in spite of all the things that bring them together. There is no need to long for anything to have changed when change would potentially force them to separate. ]
You speak of dissatisfaction with your circumstances that early on in your life. Is that because even then you were aware that your true calling was with Starfleet?
no subject
kirk exhales through his nose, smile fading.)
I had some idea of what I wanted to do, but that wasn't the reason I was dissatisfied. My mother's focus was on her career and she often expressed to my father that she wanted more than a life on a farm. When she left, I felt the same way.
I can dress it up with Starfleet all I like, but, in reality, a boy missed his mother.
What unique challenges are you referring to?
no subject
[ To speak openly of missing a parent, of using that as an emotional motivation, would be considered repulsive on Vulcan. From Jim, both honesty and devotion only sway him into a deeper sense of respect for his best friend. ]
I believe as is so often the case you fail to do justice to your own restlessness and ambition. I am not a man given to dressing up a topic and as such believe I can speak with objectivity on the subject.
[ Objectivity around him? Around Kirk? Thinking about that is as unpleasant as forming his reply for "unique challenges". ]
Vulcans embrace diversity and Vulcans embrace logic. What is meant to be different should be different, but many did not see the logic in my being meant to be at all. We are strict with ourselves. If emotions are a danger, then a Vulcan who acts human might be seen as an unnecessary risk. [ And an embarrassment. ]
no subject
No one else is as efficient at reminding me of that, Spock. What would I do without you?
(if they were face-to-face, the levity in his tone might've suggested that the rhetorical question was a harmless joke. over text, however, expression and body language are hidden away. his message conveys what he'd like it to convey.)
Never mind the risks.
You as a person represent the very best qualities of both a Vulcan of Vulcan and a human of Earth. It seems they've failed to realize that you are the IDIC variable they're meant to be celebrating.
no subject
As he is now, reading two simple sentences he has never seen spelled out before and yet feel intimately familiar.
It takes him a full conscious second of thought to realize the reason is that he's been waiting for them for years, occasionally daring to apply the philosophy of IDIC to his own situation but never bold enough to demand entry into a society where his place has been earned. ]
Thank you, Jim.
[ A response that on the surface is simple and downplayed, but Kirk will recognize it as anything but. It's a refusal to entertain the defenses he conjures for his people's own bigotry towards him, it's an acceptance of a human norm, and it's an intentional usage of the man's first name because barriers are unwelcome after that sentiment. ]
For your compliments on my efficiency.
[ And, even, a joke. ]
no subject
if it weren't followed up by a smart remark, tempting a pinched smile and resulting breath of amusement out of him, he might've sought him out in an attempt to spend the rest of the day in his company. there's still a chance of that, but he's sated for now and undeniably pleased with their current conversation.)
It's my genuine pleasure.
no subject
Just as it had been his to correct Kirk's misconceptions about himself and to attempt to brush away any doubts. Even at such a distance, even without touch or extended conversation, he cannot doubt that they've achieved some form of Synchrony even through as little as this. ]
I will see you back at the house, Captain.